Crackpot Ianto theory.
Apr. 1st, 2008 01:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mercyrobotThere's allllll these fics where Ianto turns out not to belong to the 21st century either. Okay, fine, whatever, there's also fics where he's a wizard, a Time Lord, or a jellyfish. Never really gave the idea much thought until Jack stated Ianto's birthdate in 'Fragments' and I saw someone else pointing out that he couldn't have gone to the Electro as a child if both the birthdate and the website 'history' of the Electro are both correct. It is, of course, completely possible that it's just a case of the website people not talking to the script people-- it's happened before, cf. the confusion over Owen's age.
But I submit that it's completely plausible, or that the writers are trying to make it sound plausible.
SPOILERS for 2.12 'Fragments' and earlier episodes.
Exhibit the first: The Electro. This requires a leap of faith that the 'history' is correct, on purpose, and canonical. Hop hop. Okay.
Ianto's birthdate on record is 19/08/1983, as established by 'Fragments.' But:
We get two things from this.
Exhibit the second: Sarcasm.
What really made me start seriously mulling this over was what on the surface looks like a throwaway bit of Ianto sarcasm. When discussing the Night Travellers with Jack, he says:
If we allow that Ianto is also referring to himself, that would have to push his birthdate to the earliest end of the spectrum, if he "should have been dead." Of course, he also could have meant that he should have died but ended up in the 21st century instead.
Exhibit the third: The finer things.
A bit shaky, but a love for good suits and fob watches isn't the most 21st-century thing ever. And he seems riveted by the film in 'From Out of the Rain.'
Exhibit the fourth: Love the coat.
Yeah, we all do. But Ianto really loves it and tells Jack so several times in 'Fragments.' Why does he love the coat so much? Well, maybe it reminds him of his old life. Therefore, Ianto remembers World War II, or some of it-- enough that an RAF greatcoat makes him nostalgic. Yes, I know the coat isn't strictly period, but it's assumed that's where he picked it up.
Factoring in World War II, I'd say we can put his birthdate somewhere between 1920 and 1929. I don't think he would have fought; even all these years later, Jack's still got quite a bit of the military about him, and Ianto doesn't have a whit of it. Well, maybe the 'sir' bit, but I've always thought it was more of a Jeeves-y 'sir,' cf. "a butler! I'll be a butler!"
A 1923 birthdate would put him at prime kids' film age in 1930 but technically too young to join the military. The call-up age was lowered in 1942 from 21 to 18, so we'd have to put Ianto's departure from his time period sometime before October 1942 if we're going with the idea that he wasn't in the military. He wouldn't have been quick to volunteer, I don't think, especially in light of his remarks to Tosh in Countrycide about not enjoying danger. Ianto being born in 1923 also lets either interpretation of the "should have been dead" comment work (84 is pretty dang old by WWII-era standards), though I rather prefer the encountered-a-thing-that-should-have-killed-him version.
How'd he get here, and why doesn't Jack know?
So, when's time likely to get wonky? Near a rift, especially if a lot of crap is blowing up and someone's (*cough*Owen*cough*) already disrupting the rift. So Ianto fell through during the Cardiff blitz (a thing that should have killed him!) and landed in... let's say the early 2000s sometime. Enough time to adapt and whatnot, but recent enough not to cause too many issues with his apparent age.
Why doesn't Jack know? Well, depending on when Ianto came through, he was either really preoccupied with his boss just having shot the whole team, or preoccupied with trying to put Torchwood Three back together. As late as 2003, there would have just been Jack, fresh-out-of-prison Tosh, and maybe Suzie. Maybe they were chasing a weevil when Ianto came through. Maybe it was early 2000 and a bunch of Torchwood One guys were down investigating why on earth Alex killed everyone, and picked Ianto up unbeknownst to Jack-- either not trusting him to do it or just being disingenuous goobers with better rift-monitoring equipment. Point is, there are any number of ways he could have escaped Jack's notice.
His record, obviously, is solid enough that the background check doesn't show anything funny about it. Torchwood One would be capable of that. My theory: he made a deal with T1-- they'd fix the records and give him training, he'd work for them, and they got to keep an eye on him. These records could easily have been destroyed at Canary Wharf, and everyone who knew about it along with them. It would also make sense as to how he even got hired at T1 with the utterly unimpressive background given in 'Fragments.'
Problems:
He seems to have adapted a bit too well, doesn't he? He had a black girlfriend and now he's sleeping with Jack. Not things your average '20s-born son of a tailor might find terribly acceptable. But then again, in 'Out of Time,' Emma proves to be the most adaptable to a new era, and she's around the same age I'm positing Ianto would have been. And he is clearly still a bit stiff at times.
His comfort level with present and future tech can be explained away by Torchwood One training.
And there are probably zillions of other problems, but that's why this is a crackpot theory.
But I submit that it's completely plausible, or that the writers are trying to make it sound plausible.
SPOILERS for 2.12 'Fragments' and earlier episodes.
Exhibit the first: The Electro. This requires a leap of faith that the 'history' is correct, on purpose, and canonical. Hop hop. Okay.
Ianto's birthdate on record is 19/08/1983, as established by 'Fragments.' But:
However, by 1969 the Electro was threatened with closure. It managed to get a stay of execution thanks to a British Film Insitute scheme supporting regional art-house cinemas: reanamed again, it was now known as the Cardiff Showhouse.... Even so, as the 1970s wore on it struggled to turn a profit and finally closed in 1977.
We get two things from this.
- That Ianto cannot have gone to the Electro as a child if he was born in 1983.
- That for Ianto have gone to the Electro (not the Cardiff Showhouse), he must have gone as a child before 1969.
The 1930s and 1940s were a boom time for the Electro, and screenings were regularly packed out until the coming of television.I'll therefore hazard a guess that Ianto's actual childhood occurred between c1930 and 1969.
Exhibit the second: Sarcasm.
What really made me start seriously mulling this over was what on the surface looks like a throwaway bit of Ianto sarcasm. When discussing the Night Travellers with Jack, he says:
So, two people who should have been dead for years. What kind of creatures are they?This is obviously directed at Jack's immortality. But there are two of them in the room. What if?
If we allow that Ianto is also referring to himself, that would have to push his birthdate to the earliest end of the spectrum, if he "should have been dead." Of course, he also could have meant that he should have died but ended up in the 21st century instead.
Exhibit the third: The finer things.
A bit shaky, but a love for good suits and fob watches isn't the most 21st-century thing ever. And he seems riveted by the film in 'From Out of the Rain.'
Exhibit the fourth: Love the coat.
Yeah, we all do. But Ianto really loves it and tells Jack so several times in 'Fragments.' Why does he love the coat so much? Well, maybe it reminds him of his old life. Therefore, Ianto remembers World War II, or some of it-- enough that an RAF greatcoat makes him nostalgic. Yes, I know the coat isn't strictly period, but it's assumed that's where he picked it up.
Factoring in World War II, I'd say we can put his birthdate somewhere between 1920 and 1929. I don't think he would have fought; even all these years later, Jack's still got quite a bit of the military about him, and Ianto doesn't have a whit of it. Well, maybe the 'sir' bit, but I've always thought it was more of a Jeeves-y 'sir,' cf. "a butler! I'll be a butler!"
A 1923 birthdate would put him at prime kids' film age in 1930 but technically too young to join the military. The call-up age was lowered in 1942 from 21 to 18, so we'd have to put Ianto's departure from his time period sometime before October 1942 if we're going with the idea that he wasn't in the military. He wouldn't have been quick to volunteer, I don't think, especially in light of his remarks to Tosh in Countrycide about not enjoying danger. Ianto being born in 1923 also lets either interpretation of the "should have been dead" comment work (84 is pretty dang old by WWII-era standards), though I rather prefer the encountered-a-thing-that-should-have-killed-him version.
How'd he get here, and why doesn't Jack know?
So, when's time likely to get wonky? Near a rift, especially if a lot of crap is blowing up and someone's (*cough*Owen*cough*) already disrupting the rift. So Ianto fell through during the Cardiff blitz (a thing that should have killed him!) and landed in... let's say the early 2000s sometime. Enough time to adapt and whatnot, but recent enough not to cause too many issues with his apparent age.
Why doesn't Jack know? Well, depending on when Ianto came through, he was either really preoccupied with his boss just having shot the whole team, or preoccupied with trying to put Torchwood Three back together. As late as 2003, there would have just been Jack, fresh-out-of-prison Tosh, and maybe Suzie. Maybe they were chasing a weevil when Ianto came through. Maybe it was early 2000 and a bunch of Torchwood One guys were down investigating why on earth Alex killed everyone, and picked Ianto up unbeknownst to Jack-- either not trusting him to do it or just being disingenuous goobers with better rift-monitoring equipment. Point is, there are any number of ways he could have escaped Jack's notice.
His record, obviously, is solid enough that the background check doesn't show anything funny about it. Torchwood One would be capable of that. My theory: he made a deal with T1-- they'd fix the records and give him training, he'd work for them, and they got to keep an eye on him. These records could easily have been destroyed at Canary Wharf, and everyone who knew about it along with them. It would also make sense as to how he even got hired at T1 with the utterly unimpressive background given in 'Fragments.'
Problems:
He seems to have adapted a bit too well, doesn't he? He had a black girlfriend and now he's sleeping with Jack. Not things your average '20s-born son of a tailor might find terribly acceptable. But then again, in 'Out of Time,' Emma proves to be the most adaptable to a new era, and she's around the same age I'm positing Ianto would have been. And he is clearly still a bit stiff at times.
His comfort level with present and future tech can be explained away by Torchwood One training.
And there are probably zillions of other problems, but that's why this is a crackpot theory.
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no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 04:47 am (UTC)one - we still DO have kids films on a Saturday morning in a good many cinemas here in the UK. Since she was three, my (now) seven year old niece has been to the cinema more times than I have!
and the place being closed wouldn't nescessarily prevent occasional reopenings for special events although I do agree Ianto sounded like he had the visits on a regular basis.
Nice idea though!
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 06:27 am (UTC)spend a pathetically long amount of time researching wacky ideasmake my own conjectures.Of course, I was one of those people who was absolutely convinced before the last couple of HP books that Lily was Voldemort's daughter and Ron and Dumbledore were the same person. I loves my wacky theories, I does. At least TW's so schizo on continuity that I don't get too attached to them.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 07:57 pm (UTC)Schizo continuity is putting it mildly - Owen's continutiy hasn't been too bad but Fragments plays around with Tosh's continuity although Ianto's dovetails beautifully with Cyberwoman.
it's still fun to watch....at least, it HAS been fun.....not so sure about tomorrow night's episode.....(Exit Wounds in 25 hours time...wibble). Still, at least if they do what the spoilers say I'll have plenty of people to sob to....I remember when they gave Spike his soul back and I knew ONE person to scream "aaarggh!" at. Of course in the end it worked out but at the time all I could see was an Angel-esque figure.
Then there's the question of just HOW they intend to get Jack from Torchwood to Dr Who and back to Torchwood WITHOUT Ianto ripping his balls off......
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 07:59 pm (UTC)My husband was convinced all the way through that Harry having Lily's eyes was significant. I gave him half-marks in the end, cos it was - but to Snape, not to Voldemort which was his theory.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 11:45 pm (UTC)And finale anxiety, I know! I've been squeaky and twitchy all week. I actually declined a social activity tomorrow night so I can go straight home and download it. Which is probably sad.
The obvious solution for how Jack can go to DW without Ianto killing him is to take him along... oh, wait, I think I've read that fanfic. I'm just wondering how much effing Donna we're going to have to suffer through before the good companions turn back up. Which may end up being famous last words, because I really thought I was going to hate Martha and ended up loving her. I did read a fantastic rumor (spoiler? hard to say) today, though (on
As to the Ron-Dumbledore thing... well, I didn't actually come up with it, someone else did-- it was to do with the chess game in the first book being some kind of knight/king symbolism for Ron becoming Dumbledore. I don't even remember all the details, but the people who came up with it did a really good job of supporting their argument. I was quite convinced of it till JKR said 'uhhhh, nice idea, but no.' I think I also thought socks were going to end up being really important. I'll so believe anything if it's got enough evidence to back it up.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 09:11 pm (UTC)Even in the US, some theaters that were pretty much out of business might be rented out by groups to show things exactly like movies for kids. I can totally make sense of Ianto going to the Electro with his dad; the Electro would have closed, but it would be periodically reopened (and thus not have been torn down in 2008 or in whatever year this episode takes place; if it had just closed, would it really have stood empty in Cardiff for twenty years? Plus, Ianto's dad might well have called it by the old name even if it was operating under a different name). I would write a fic about it, but that would necessarily involve adding other biographical details for Ianto, and I'd end up Jossed big time, I have no doubt.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
I thought continuity wasn't too bad until someone said Martha says Owen is 27 at the start of the autopsy! My husband and I are convinced the actress simply misread the line, and we must have misheard it; I was sure it was 37!
no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 11:03 pm (UTC)Ha, logic! What is this logic you use? :P
But you're right, about both Tosh and the Electro. Though the awesome historical theatre where I live did basically sit empty for a decade.
The whole (admittedly wacky) time-traveller theory depends on incredibly shaky TW continuity anyway... mostly I was just sort of seeing if I could make it possible (also, it sounded a lot better a month ago).
But yeah, I think Owen's been three different ages now according to various sources. Plz to be making fact lists, writers.